Love Letters to Stan Culture: Combating Hustle Culture in the Industry

Our FWT hosts Casey (she/her) and Vyoma (she/her) are joined by Penny Eau for the first episode of Love Letters to Stan Culture in 2023!

In today’s episode we are dissecting hustle culture within the music industry, combating burnout, and talking about how important it is to lift up women in the industry.

Penny Eau is a singer/songwriter and poet with passions in art, love, life, spiruality, and mental health. We were so excited to sit down with her and pick her brain and we hope something resonates with you as well.

listen on Spotify and Anchor

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Fangirls World Tour presents: a podcast by the fans, for the fans. We provide content to empower and encourage fans to get involved in the industry. This is Love Letters to Stan Culture!

C: Hi, everybody. My name is Casey, and I use she/her pronouns.

V: Hi, everyone. My name is Vyoma, and I also use she/her pronouns, and today we are joined with Penny. Thank you for coming, Penny.

P:Thank you so much for having me. 

C: I’m super excited to talk to you both. So it’s been a long time coming. I know we talked about this like months ago. But yeah, so it should be good

P: Absolutely.

V: Yeah, so tell us a little bit about yourself. I’m meeting you for the first time, so I don’t really know what you do either. What are you up to?

P: Yeah. Yeah. My name is Penny Eau. I also use she/her pronouns, and I am a singer songwriter, and also an author, a poet, and yeah, I’m doing just a lot of writing these days.

I’m releasing both an album and a collection of poetry at the beginning of 2023. I’m in kind of the, you know, long stretches of kind of finalizing those pieces of work these days and yeah. I generally tend to write and ponder on climate change, the environment, relationships and sexuality, how we relate to each other, and yeah, all those kinds of things that play into the human experience.

V: That is awesome, and I love that you’re thinking about the environment. I love that so much I love when people talk about that cause not a lot of people do

P: Oh, no, I completely agree, and I think it’s definitely something that sort of the cry of my heart, and something that I feel like I’ve known. For a very long time that I wanted to be involved with as far as my career. But music has always been kind of the feel that I feel most drawn to as far as a profession. But they don’t. They’re not separate entities, you know. Art is very much the place where we talk about these things and spread information and spread awareness. And yeah, I definitely see it as an opportunity to speak on things that are important to this point in time. And yeah, to reach people in a different way.

C: I love that. I think that’s something that a lot of people don’t talk about, like you guys said. But I think to have that in the music industry specifically is kind of rare and unique.

P: Yeah, I think it’s a good opportunity, though, isn’t it? Because, especially like our generation. And you know sort of younger people in general, we get the bulk of our information from social media, from music, from those kinds of things like that’s how we consume information so it

seems natural and sensible to include information about the most critical topics of our time within the art, within these conversations. So yeah, it feels to me like they should coexist. They should be one in the same at times

V: Yeah, I completely agree. And sometimes I don’t know. I feel like it’s not talked about enough. I I know I’ve said that before, but in the sense that like you know a lot of times we talk about like our relationships and like mental health, and stuff like that which is also very important, very valid, but stuff like climate anxiety is also very much real. Sometimes I catch myself thinking I’m like 10 years from now. What if the world ends because we’re destroying it?

P: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I think about it constantly. I’ll catch myself doing crazy things. I’ll catch myself spending a little more money than I should, because I’m like we might not have a planet in 10 years. I might not need this in 10 years. So yeah, I definitely feel the climate anxiety a lot lately

C: 100%. I feel that daily, probably, but also in like the I’m like, I’m doing my little thing. I’m using paper straws and like I’m recycling and like, and then there’s like the people out there who are not and like you know, like the billionaires who like have more of an impact than I guess like me and it frustrates me. So I mean like I’m doing what I can. I’m sure both of you are. But yeah.

P:  Hmm, but I think it’s a complex thing like I can sort of see where things like billionaires and large corporations and governments and things like that are more hesitant to take the kind of action that we need them to when we as consumers aren’t doing behaviors that reflect our actual concern. So I think even those things, even though there’s the small, you know comparatively to what a billionaire does. I think it plays into sort of the consciousness and the awareness and the eventual kind of tipping point that we will hit that will cause these sort of bigger entities to say you know what actually like if we want to keep resonating with everyone and we want to keep getting their money and all of those sorts of things, and we will have to change because the consumer behavior is changing, and those kinds of statistics are shifting in that way. So I think it’s really important, you know. I think all of these little things do add up, and eventually will be what is the catalyst for a greater shift.

V: That was… I love that answer. Because yeah.  I agree about holding like you know, obviously corporations and politicians accountable like yes, that’s a very important step, but like if we don’t try our best as people which I’m sure like there are a lot of people who are but you know there’s like consumers I’m obviously is huge and I don’t blame people for that. The world we live in like I mean, I myself love a good, indulging moment every now and then, but I mean the culture we live in is just like sometimes it perpetuates a lot. So I’m like okay, you know what? Yes, we might not be a part of the problem, but sometimes we are.

P: Hmm all good things in moderation.

C: I feel like that’s a good segue into what we really wanted to talk about today, which is like hustle culture and burnout like specifically in the music industry. All things in moderation. I think that’s something that we lack, not specifically us. But I think as an industry, it’s like the creative industry as a whole, more of like. I don’t wanna work from 9 to 5, but now I work 24/7 type thing. That’s kind of what we really wanted to focus on today.

P: Yeah, it’s definitely a difficult dilemma of exactly what you say. Do you give 9 to 5 to someone else, or do you give 24/7 to yourself?  But it doesn’t always have the same kind of clarity and certainty that a 9 to 5 would have. And yeah, the expectations. I think we as artists in social media, Tiktok, day and age are just insane, like completely unsustainable, like asking creatives to create an output which is just not realistic or sustainable, you know. I feel like if you’re an artist, and you have so much creative capacity. You want to pour that into in theory, you know, this is a generalization, I guess. But you want to pour that into your original music, your original work, the kinds of things that yeah, speak to the messages that you feel are most important for you to speak on, and most qualified for you to speak on but at the same time you’re kind of constantly getting this pressure to make things work in less than 1 min and to be visually enticing and to loop someone in within the first 3 seconds and you know, that’s just not always how you want art to unfold, and that’s not always how your message is designed to be delivered, and yeah, I think the demands that we’re starting to create are starting to squash out creativity in favor. of virality in a way that I think we’re going to end up seeing a generation of artists who aren’t as in tune with what they actually want to create. They’re just kind of becoming machines, and of course there’s always been artists who were just kind of following the demands of a larger company and things like that. But I think we’ve come to a point where even completely independent artists have had so much influence. And I’ve heard this kind of narrative of this is what you have to do to succeed in this day and age that we’re seeing less and less kind of originality and more and more copies of a recipe of something that may or may not resonate with anybody and yeah, it’s becoming, a really interesting thing of wanting to monetize your art, but not compromise your message.The ability to do that is narrowing, I think day by day. It’s frustrating. Sorry, I definitely went on a little rant as soon as you said it. It was just like this is the thing on my mind.

V: We love a good rant. I’m always here for a rant

P: Hmm! It’s difficult.

V: But yeah, I oh, yeah, I can just hear the frustration in your voice.

P: Yeah, I think I’m at least like that, personally. I’m 27 like I guess consider myself like a millennial, and I feel like I still very much grew up at a time where albums were still king, and I still consume music in that way personally.  I very much prefer to consume an album top to bottom, then shuffle some random playlist, and certainly over scrolling through tech talk and getting 15 seconds of each song. Like I still prefer long form art.  And I think there are definitely a lot of consumers who do, regardless of their age. But the like receptive and the ability to monetize long format is getting smaller and smaller. You know people are more and more, and investing in artists who are creating these really short things rather than artists who are pouring into these kind of longer form projects and I don’t know like there’s nothing wrong per se with short form content. It’s just different and I don’t know. Just yeah as a consumer I like to really immerse myself in the story. I like to understand where this artist came from, why they made it, how they made it, over what period of time they made it and I’m so much more intrigued by the an hour, long album that was created over a year than any sort of viral thirty-second clip that was created in an hour, you know, and I think to be an upcoming artist who prefers this kind of long form content and who wants to create it. You very quickly find, as you start to pitch it and present it to people that they’re still kind of you’re often faced with people kind of asking. Well, what’s the you know what’s the 15 second clip? What’s that kind of thing? And of course there’s always you have to be able to elevate or pitch your work.  But at the same time not everything can be reduced into that kind of format, and it shouldn’t be. It’s not designed to be some things that are more thought provoking, and things like that can take time to unfold.

C: Yeah, 100% and even like I was in school for music business when Tiktok was on the rise and there was like even a switch in my education with how people wanted to perceive long form and short-form content. So it was like it went from you know this is like my music, all of it to let’s put this song on the radio, let’s put this song on TikTok. And I think, I agree with you that it takes the, like the magic out of it. A little bit. If you’re really just creating to make a hit is something that’s true to yourself, ya know. 

P: Yeah, absolutely. And of course there’s nothing wrong with wanting to create something that’s hit.worthy that, you know, touches the masses in that way. But it shouldn’t come at the compromise, you know it shouldn’t be just because that’s the driving factor, you know. That’s all that people sort of have an appetite for anymore.

V: Yeah. Yeah, what I’ve noticed is that a lot of, I guess from the business perspective, a lot of like marketers and people online will advise like artists to, you know, utilize these tools like Oh, keep on making tiktok to like boost your song, or, you know, make tiktoks about yourself so you can reach your fans. Which is I think it’s good as an initial exposure of an artist to like the masses out there but I can see like a lot of artists. They are also frustrated when people tell them to do that because they like, I know there’s a lot of people out there that are very much still interested in long form, type of art, and music, but it’s just that. Like our generation, has become so accustomed and like even, you know, businesses and executives. They’re just so much pushing this type of short, like quick, instant gratification type of marketing. So it’s just like it’s become what everyone’s stuck with having to do.

P: Yeah, definitely. I think it’s something that kind of spreads out over everyone like I think we now, as artists are being faced both us as artists, and I think it comes to the platforms as well, I was watching or listening to a podcast with youtube’s head of music really who is speaking about. He thinks Youtube shorts are superior. Obviously I mean it’s this job, but like he thinks Youtube shorts are superior to Tiktok and reels because it opens the door for people to, then go onto their Youtube channel and actually watch their long form, content and things like that. So yeah, I think we as artists like, I’m happy to play the game. I’ll make Tiktoks. I’ll do the thing, but I do want it to sort of lead into a bigger world that, you know, a more immersive experience. So yeah, I think it’s now coming to a point where, at this interesting place, where I think we as artists need to start priming our audience and kind of encouraging them to thank you for watching my Tiktok, thank you for sharing it but also here is a full music video that I spent a lot of time on, and that I think actually kind of conveys my whole message. So yeah, I think we have to start kind of helping consumers understand how this is unsustainable, to an extent, and start learning how we can, you know, take the highlights from our work, and you know maximize the tools that we have, because, like realistically, it is such an incredible like blessing and crazy point in time that we’ve come to where social media has sort of leveled things out in such a way that no matter what kind of equipment you have no matter what kind of financial background no matter what kind of musical background you can put your music in front of people like realistically, that is new, and that’s exciting. But so like it’s still something to be stoked about. But you know again, not at the expense of your creativity and your actual message, and being authentic, and things like that, so yeah. I think we’re finding kind of a fine, an interesting conversation that we can start to have with our audience of like yeah, I’ll play the game I’ll make a Tiktok for you. But will you in return come and engage with my long form content, will you come to my show

C: I feel that like. Yes, I will make the tiktok. Yeah, it probably will be a little bit fun. But like I need you to click on that link like you know what I mean.

P: Yeah. Yeah.

C: Like. I need to continue on and like I need you to click the website, I need you to read this article. Same thing.

P: Yeah, I think it’s important to kind of I don’t know help, in a way, this generation understand what it’s like to become that deeply invested in an artist, you know, because I think it was really natural when you did have to make the kind of commitment of buying a whole CD whereas now you don’t have to commit to anything at all you don’t have to commit anything more than 15 seconds of your scroll time. So I think, yeah, we have kind of an interesting conversation to be had between artists and audience of if you want to keep seeing this kind of content, then I need your support to be able to create it in the first place I need both you know kind of your time and your resources in that way as an as a consumer.

V: Yeah kind of moving away from this exact train of thought.I was, I saw a thread on Instagram about, like, you know. Hustle culture in the music industry, and a very sad kind of not shocking, sadly statistic that I saw is that 73% of Indie musicians are reported experiencing anxiety, stress and or depression okay, just mental health stuff. Yay! Which it’s like this should not be happening like art is something that should make us happy, like even the process of it. It’s like, you know, even if you’re putting together a spreadsheet for it, or like you know, working with other people, whatever that it is like as an artist what I you know what we like to see is people enjoying the process of their art, or you know, just that’s what it’s supposed to do. It’s supposed to heal you, but that doesn’t seem to be the case.

P: No

V: So what are your thoughts on that as an artist?

P: My first thought is that realistically, the artists are usually kind of the most sensitive people in society, in a lot of ways like. I think there is kind of always going to be this sort of inherent overlap of the people who are very drawn to art and creation are also the people who you know have some kind of demons and trauma and things, like that that they’re looking to use aren’t to connect with I think there’s just kind of always that sort of inherent over overlap in a way. But I think also, yeah, we need to attribute more sort of value to art in such a way that it doesn’t inherently create this sort of toxic hustle called culture that causes people to burn our own you know I think more and more sort of statistics are coming to light about things like, for example, how much money Ticketmaster takes off of tickets where it’s like, if the actual kind of cruise and musicians and everyone involved in live music, we’re seeing the kind of income that they deserve for these jobs they wouldn’t be driven to burning out they wouldn’t be driven to taking every single show every single time. There would be a little bit more emphasis on sort of work-life balance in these sort of things that would be conducive to healing and relaxing and by extension creating better art. You know we need to experience the world and experience things to have something to write about in the first place. So I think we need to do a better job assigning value to art, and then sort of distributing what comes back from it. So that it doesn’t. It doesn’t force people to hustle in this way, because right now it does. Right now most smaller artists don’t see most of the money that they even generate. You know it normally does go to a company of some sort that has so much income. They really don’t need it, and that sort of takes the humanity out of the person who is on the ground making the art playing the show, who really does who really needs just a day off but they can’t afford to right now because someone in a suit somewhere is scraping up all the profits that they’re creating. And yeah, I think if we can do sort of a better job of looking after the people in our industry, then hopefully statistics like that will go down. But obviously that’s such a huge problem and structure to dismantle you know I don’t know what the solution is per se. But I think the more we can look after each other and give people space and time to be humans and not just workers the more that we will see people start to recover and start to thrive as artists again.

C: Yeah. Yeah, I agree so much. I just wish there was an answer to all of that like. I wish I knew something to tell people you know like when they ask, but like personally, I have also dealt with, you know, like the burnout, even from education burnout, but specifically, I think, trying to get into the music industry as somebody without connections. I think that causes a lot of issues with like a lot of people, especially around our age. Yeah, I think that is kind of a whole different problem within the industry. Like the latter, that you have to climb. I had a professor who always said like, don’t step too hard on the people you climb up because you might have to kiss their way like kiss their ass to get back to where you are. it was like right? so it was like don’t be too hard on the people that you pass, because they might be the people that are ahead of you like later. Yeah, so I just think that whole thing is a different issue. But I think it. It definitely plays into wanting to succeed and like feeling like you have to work constantly in order to do that.

P: Hmm, yeah, it’s a very difficult balance. And I think just in general we need to do a better job looking out for each other and making things like mental health services readily available for people and yeah opening conversations about generational trauma. And these kinds of things that I feel like our generation is starting to do a much better job, being kind of proactive about healing and talking about then generations before us.

V: Yeah, totally I guess. Similar to what Casey was saying about you know, having this industry where it’s pretty much based on who you know, and the connections and stuff. The interesting thing is that I’m a person that I enjoy, I don’t know, I like going to networking events and that type of stuff, not so I can get the connection to make the job, but because I enjoy just meeting people and building that human connection. And if that can help me get a job, great. But if that doesn’t like that’s fine, but I feel like people have kind of lost that type of mentality. Not to say, you have to like agree with me, but at least I try to think about it in that way like, hey, I’m not making this connection just to make a job like let me try to you know, like Foster something out of it, even if it doesn’t give me like any tangible thing in return

P: I completely agree. I move around a lot like I’ve tended to move like I don’t know lately every few years, or so things like networking events have become kind of my lifeline of needing to find a community, and yeah. I don’t know. Personally, I just definitely have found now over time the richest, deepest friendships I have have always been in other people, in music, not necessarily musicians, but just people who work in and around the industry. So yeah, I’m definitely out there seeking friends as well. So, yeah, there’s so much to be said about that kind of human connection. And yeah, not just reducing it to job opportunities. But we just have something massive in common. We breathe the same thing like we live for the same thing like how exciting to get to bond over it, and you know we could come from different corners of the planet. But this shared love brought us in this same room today. How exciting is that?

V: Yeah, I love that that is very wholesome. And if anyone’s to all the listeners out there, if you want to be our friends, us up, we’re friendly people, I promise we’re not all about the hustle culture. Just wanna make that clear!

P: Definitely, definitely.

C: Yeah, I mean I do complain, but it’s all with love.

P: Yeah, those pros and cons to absolutely everything.

Another weird pause casey what are you doing

C: You mentioned, wanting to set in things for people to relax, and for them to like kind of heal. How do you think that you do that in your own personal life?

P: Ooh, how do I heal? You know this is gonna sound silly as hell, but truthfully this past year I’ve started to realize how much how I guess how deeply saved I was in hustle culture of I was very bad at doing nothing and I’ve been on quite the journey this past yeah, but like especially the last 6 months of realizing that how much value there is and to sort of untie the knots in my mind, like giving myself actual sort of space to. I don’t know. Just explore quiet time, so I’ve been spending a lot more time than usual lately, doing things like walking, just walking with things like buyingural beats on so that I can sort of I don’t know just make peace with things in that way I definitely find so much healing and relief by getting in tune with my body. I really like to work out. I love swimming and yoga and stuff like that where it can be kind of like it’s not. It’s not intense, you know, and I think it’s especially when you do things like swim, you are, It’s kind of you, and your thoughts, and you and your body. So I’ve been doing a lot of things like that. Writing, obviously, is so so healing. I, during the pandemic I read a book called The Artist’s Way that prescribes this practice of first thing in the morning, every day writing 3 pages of a journal and it can be just anything it, can just kind of be free form just your thoughts flowing or you know you can come with something of a mission, but the important thing is to do it every day for a sustained period of time. I think the book is a 12 week thing. If I remember correctly, I don’t remember, because I’ve I’ve stuck with it since now like it completely transformed my like relationship to self and my relationship to myself as a writer I became much less sort of critical of my writing and started to be better about just sort of letting things flow out and not being judgmental about what came forward, and in doing so I don’t know. Just came to make some really interesting sort of realizations about patterns that I perpetuate in my life, and things like that I’ve been keeping journals very consistently since 2017 now and it’s really interesting to sort of flip through and see how things have played out. You know things that I sort of wanted in life, or predicted in life, or hoped for, or whatever like to look back on how my state of mind was done versus now, being able to sort of yeah, form this deeper relationship with myself through the journal through writing through paper has been really profound so yeah. I suppose, to summarize, giving my mind space and safe places to wander has been the most healing thing for me lately, and therapy. Everyone should be in therapy. I think. Yeah, I have a big fan of therapy.

C: I agree!

V: Yeah, therapy is great.

P: Yeah, and being really critical about who you spend your time with. I’ll say that as well. That’s something else I’ve been doing a lot this past year is not being afraid to say this relationship doesn’t serve me anymore like things like childhood, best friends and things like that where it’s just sort of like oh, we’ve always been in each other’s lives, so I guess we’re always going to be I don’t know just something sort of clicked in my mind of like? Is that necessarily true? Like, is this relationship helping you become the person that you want to be? You know this theory of if you’re the sum of the 5 people that you spend the most time with. Are these people actually creating the person that you want to present yourself to the world as? And yeah, I’ve been a lot kind of tighter and more critical about who I give my time to this past year and it’s been a lot of really really difficult decisions and it’s been very painful at times, but coming out of them. I’ve always been very grateful and always felt like I honored myself, and hopefully them as well. Hopefully, this is healthy for them to kind of rediscover. You know different things as well, but yeah, I don’t know. I’ve made a lot of hard decisions this past year about who I’m willing to give time to, and energy to, and it’s it looked very different than past years of my life. But I’ve been very grateful to myself for having made that decision in the long haul sense

C: That’s very admirable. I think. Like that’s a very brave thing to do. It’s very difficult to put up those boundaries and then keep them with yourself. You know, to protect your own peace. I think that’s just a great thing that you have put into practice.

P: Yeah, boundaries. That’s the key word there. Shout out therapy for enabling me to do it.

V: Yeah, I completely agree, boundary setting is so important like in any kind of social sphere like in your social life and your family life, even in your work. Life. Like. Oh, my God! I’m sure like, especially in the music industry, like people probably work with certain people all the time, and they probably, you know, don’t get along with them, or even if they’re like they’re you know constantly stuck working with them, and they’re like being asked to fulfill all these demands and they can’t really back down from them, because It’s their job. And like boundary setting in those types of situations, can be so difficult. But I feel like more and more people are starting to realize that which is awesome.

P: Hmm: yeah, definitely, it’s not always realistic to set hard and fast boundaries and professional situations like that. But I think that’s where sometimes personal boundaries are important. You know like you do the job there, but you don’t take it home with you. You don’t linger on it. You’re able to sort of find your escapism once you leave the office kind of thing. That kind of self care thing plays into it as well. Don’t let it define you. Don’t let it be every aspect of your personality if you can let it stay at the office, and then when you go home you know be yourself and things, like that but yeah, I think yeah, boundaries as an artist is a really big one like what am I willing to do and what am I not? Am I willing to, you know, make really personal, TikToks about my life, for example, that you mentioned that a little bit ago, and I think that’s a really interesting one where it’s like, I think there is this expectation sometimes for artists to have sort of no boundaries to sort of invite people into every corner of their lives because of social media, and that’s just not fair that’s not realistic. Like you are allowed to let your art speak for itself, and let your personal life be personal. It should be exactly that. If that’s how you feel and it’s you know all power to people who do want to share everything and be a completely open book. But I think that’s one boundary that I think keeps getting treaded on for artists, that I think also leads to burnout, because at least for me personally, there was a period of time where I felt really pressured to do that to show every aspect of my life and I saw it playing out in my friendships and relationships and stuff where it was like. I’m not really even present in these events anymore, because I feel so pressured to take content while I’m here and take videos and it’s like I just want to enjoy this interaction. I just want to enjoy this event and not feel like I have to plaster social media in it. So yeah, I think that’s another boundary is like, how much are you willing to share as an artist? Do you want to share every aspect of your life, or do you want your art to be what speaks for you

C: I think it’s hard to make that decision because obviously you want to come across as very personable to people who you want to invest in you. Not saying money wise, but you know their time and their energy, and you know their streams, etc. But like you want to make connections with them, but to keep, I guess your mental health off of the Internet, or like not rely on that to keep you.I don’t know you know what I mean like. It’s just there’s a fine line that is hard for people to establish.

P: Hmm! Absolutely, and I think it can be fluid as well. You know you can have a period of your life where you’re feeling very social, very proud of everything that you’re doing, and you do want to share all of it. And you can have more reclusive healing periods of time where you’re like. I just need to be by myself right now, and not sprite it all over the Internet. You know it doesn’t. It doesn’t always have to be kind of black and white either. It can seasons of life, you know it can be kind of transitory

V: Yeah, that reminds me like in in the previous podcast episode, where we talked about like the k-pop industry, a lot like a lot of our conversation was about how the k-pop artists like of a huge part of like that type of music industry is like maintaining a parasocial relationship with the fans like it’s huge and K-pop,I’m sure Western artists like they have to do that as well. But in k-pop it’s like a whole new level, and like sometimes I just think about it at like sometimes it’s it’s a very interesting thing to think about, because they pump out so much content constantly for the fans and I’m like are they not exhausted of like just showing themselves on camera, like literally 24/7, and I I mean even now for artists like you like even ordinary artists like with the whole, you know, trying to promote ourselves on Tiktok and trying to get our name out there it’s kind of become where like everyone has to kind of think about that.. Oh, do I have to be sharing every part of my life, even though it’s not sustainable. I guess I have to, but like it’s not how it should be

P: Hmm! I kind of envy you know artists like the Beatles and people who didn’t have to think about this, who sort of had okay, at this moment I’m doing press and then I’m going home like there is. No, there’s no line anymore. The phone is always there. You can always choose to either just make your food and enjoy it, or make your food for Tiktok, for your instagram story. Phones, eat first. It’s just yeah. It’s a crazy sort of decision to make and K-pop is a whole different beast.That is a really intense culture

P:I love them but..

C: I was reading. Oh, yeah, agree. Music, great. Culture is a little bit difficult.

P: Yeah, yeah, Mhmm.

C: I was reading some lawsuits, actually with like artists, managers. And a lot of that has to do with how a label in their management is to an artist. And as somebody who like wants to work in the industry I find that very difficult to wrap my head, around like I

Can’t I like don’t want to support that? Obviously, that is not something that I would ever want to do. But there’s like a conflict there like “is that how this works kind of thing?” And going off of boundaries like I think we, as people need to put those boundaries up and like not take work home like you know what I mean. Like this is a relationship we have professionally, and then I go home. And maybe we do have a friendly relationship but that has to be separated. And I think that’s something that isn’t talked about as it should be. 

P: Yeah, I’m probably not. And I think there’s a lot of sort of expectation misalignment that can often happen in these relationships. Like obviously both parties are invested in succeeding, but at what pace, at what scale? All these kinds of things, where you really need to make sure sort of everyone is on board with what the plan is and what that actually looks like, in practice I think it’s really easy for people in administrative roles to make a calendar and make plans without completely factoring any humanity of it, of how grueling it can be as an artist. And it’s easy, as an artist to say yes, to everything that’s presented to you without kind of factoring that in as well and so it’s sort of a mutual yeah. I don’t know, needing to sort of be on the same page and make sure your boundaries are clear in that way, so that you create something that’s mutually beneficial we both need each other to succeed. But how can we actually be a pillar of support to each other, and not, you know, driving each other to exhaustion?

V: Yeah and that just got me thinking like it makes total sense as to why artists keep canceling like their tour dates, especially this year. I saw it a lot. And the interesting thing is that like you know, whenever, like some artists would post their like tor date schedule thingy, I see the dates, and I’m like this is back to back to back to back! But okay, like people are gonna buy the tickets because obviously they want to see their favorite artists. But like I’m like my nerdy brain is thinking about the logistics of it. I’m like, “are they not gonna get tired? Are there like tour management? People are not gonna get tired?” Like this is constantly like running around and sometimes like, even in multiple countries like flying to different cities and like it makes sense the way they cancel these tours because it’s just a lot of mental pressure. Mad respect to like artists who have been brave enough to cancel. I love it when I see those posts. I’m like yes, take your break. Please take your break.

P: Yeah, I think it’s easier for people who have purchased a ticket for one day to be so shattered when that one day gets canceled without factoring in humanity. Like these people have been, traveling around performing non-stop for 40 days in a row without a single day off like they’re humans! Can you imagine working 40 days straight, like most people can’t. And so they get really disappointed when this one day gets canceled without seeing the whole picture. So yeah, it’s refreshing to hear like people actually like looking at the schedule and realizing like this is insanity, like this is not sustainable of a time really, like you know I’ll power to everyone who is able to sustain the whole thing. But yeah, also mad respect for people who end up saying, “you know what I thought I could do it, and it turns out I really need just this one day off. I need to breathe, I need to inhale for the first time in 40 days”. So. Yeah, I think that that’s cool. It’s good that people are starting to sort of understand that from a fan perspective as well to see like yeah, it’s disappointing of course you wanted to see them. But do you want to see them be able to sustain this for the next 10 years? Because if you do want to keep following their music, then this one day off might be an investment for the rest of their career. It might enable them to do this so much longer and so much stronger, so that one day off might be really necessary in the grand scheme of things.

C: The first person that came to mind when you brought that up was Harry Styles with his Residency shows. He did 10 Nights at MSG and then directly, to I don’t know exactly, but did like 10 nights and directly did LA for like 6 nights.

P: Oh, wow!

C: I know he recently just canceled because he ended up getting sick but like of course, he ended up getting sick. You had to be on for however many days you know. Like that’s insane. I can’t. I don’t know. I think you have to understand that, like your favorite artist is not a robot and like these are live people that are performing, and like while that is their job like they don’t get to go home at like 5 o’clock and like check out, you know. Like they perform right, and I’m sure obviously, you know. 

P: Yeah, it’s a very different sort of job that you yeah, don’t necessarily get to turn off all the time.

And yeah, I think the more yeah, that’s this kind of awareness, I think amongst listeners and things will help create a more compassionate industry that allows for people to tour it more sustainable cases and things like this the more that people start to see the humanity behind it

Yeah, I don’t know cause yeah, I guess I’ll say I was really burnt out. I definitely registered that I was completely burnt out. And that’s why I’ve ended up taking some time at a bit slower pace than I had historically. And yeah, I think being able that’s a huge luxury. I know to be able to step back for a second and take things at a slightly slower pace. But it was really necessary. So yeah. I think seeing artists do stuff like cancel dates here and there is just the beginning of a grander shift that we’re going to see

V: Oh, yes, I remembered, and it’s kind of similar to what you said. But as you just mentioned, like it’s a luxury to many people to be able to take a break like sometimes people you know, they cannot afford that given their circumstances. So I guess a helpful insight would be how do you personally differentiate between working hard versus overworking like what is the fine line for you? How can you tell?

P: Oh, I don’t know that I always can until I’m in too deep! That’s a good question. Hmm! I think It’s not black and white, I think, at least from me. There’s periods of my life where I’m able to sustain hard work like long days day after day. This kind of no days off for 40 days. Sort of thing, but it needs to be balanced by another period that is slower and more moderate, and things like that. So I think it’s kind of individualized and fluid. I think also for myself, I used to think of myself as somebody. I don’t know who, for example, I used to have just incredibly rigid routines. I used to kind of be very strict about everything, how much I worked out, what I ate, all these sorts of things. I just went 5 years without having a single drop of alcohol and things like that.

Yeah, it was sort of last November that I mean. I literally moved into my company’s house for a period and stuff, because I was like “mom. I’m so burnt out I can’t even fathom paying my rent right now. Can I please just move into your house and sleep for a minute?” So like that was the kind of civility burnt out that I was, and the kind of recovery that I underwent, and things like that. And then, throughout now this year of kind of picking the pace back up and reengaging

and going back out and doing all the things that I used to do I’ve come to realize that actually being that hard on myself wasn’t really producing the kind of result that I wanted. Like being more flexible about how I treat my body and giving myself the opportunity to go and have drinks with friends and things like that actually does enable me to work harder like I used to sort of thing like “Oh, if I don’t drink, and I’m really like this then I’ll be able to work so much harder.”

But the truth was that my brain was like frying, and it was never getting the kind of exhale release that I actually needed to be able to work harder. So I’ve come to find that, at least for me personally, balancing like work hard, play hard has actually been kind of at least now I’m starting to feel over this past year the sweet spot. Like not being quite so intense actually allows me to work more intensely when I want to. I’ve become better about pouring completely into whatever it is that I’m working on kind of going into flow state, and then also completely shutting it off when the time is appropriate and that’s where I ended up feeling things like I don’t actually really like vlogging all the time, because then it makes what otherwise would have been the time that my brain shut off.

It’s still in that kind of workspace of like “how is this going to look in a 9 by 16 ratio and blah blah blah”. All of that kind of technical stuff, so yeah, I don’t know. I think it’s sort of playing with your time, and how you treat your mind starting to understand is discipline what actually enables me to work at the kind of capacity that I want to? Or is this kind of relaxation and playfulness actually allowing me to work better when I am working and at least for me that’s sort of the big kind of takeaway I’ve had of this sort of past year of having the kind of freedom to mess with my schedule a little bit, you know, and start to experiment with things so yeah, I don’t know.

I think for me it comes down to work hard, play hard. And I used to just sort of work hard, and in my time off was still kind of turned on to a certain extent. I wasn’t completely relaxing ever and yeah, just led to completely unsustainable patterns. And I burnt out very bad. 

C: I definitely felt the same way. I do find that I enjoy schedule. I love organization, I love a routine. But I find it hard for myself to like shut down and take that time to relax, and while you said you struggled with the same thing, obviously you got to a point where you needed to shut down you obviously it was too much mentally or something you know.I don’t wanna make like a generalization, but

P: No, no, I mean I’ll be the first to admit that I was collapsing. I was dying. I lost my period like my body was screaming for rest like I was really overworked.It was so bad. Yeah.

C:That’s awful. But would you have any advice for people who I guess aren’t at that point, but can kind of feel themselves getting there?

P: Hmm. Yeah, I think I think it is again very individualized. It’s hard to sort of generalize what this experience looks like. And how it manifests in your body and in your life and things like that. But Yeah, I don’t know, I guess giving yourself sort of space to stop defining yourself based on how you have thus far like I really was sort of like “I am a routine person. This is how I thrive”, and for something to come in, and like threaten that story was like very scary to me, and made me think I was failing, and that sort of criticism of myself was what perpetuated the cycle that caused me to burn out so poorly where it was realistically if I had realized that sometimes these little things coming into my schedule like we’re opportunities for me to take a step back and to do things that were healthier then maybe I would have had a better experience. So yeah, I don’t know, be flexible in the narrative that you have about yourself and the kind of worker that you are, I think, is the first place to start, like as much as possible be open to change into different pacings and to different phases of life.

Different phases of life will facilitate different like taking a period of rest does not mean that you’ve quit, or that you failed in any way so much as you are recharging. You know nothing blooms year round, and that’s true of people, that’s true of careers, that’s true of everything so being able to sort of see the value of rest as something that will and eventually propel you to something greater than you would have been able to achieve had you not taken that step back. And yeah, I think as much as possible, connecting with the things that make us human.

You know, walking in nature, not like listening to anything sometimes, just letting your thoughts wander and giving yourself space. You know self care doesn’t have to be luxurious and expensive. It really can be as simple as just taking 5 minutes to feel grass on your feet in the middle of a really stressful workday. So yeah. I think, learning how to sort of create balance as much as possible, and as in in realistic ways. Cause yeah, I think a lot. Another thing is that I think self-care sometimes can be really hyped up as something that’s you know, kind of a big deal that you have to like schedule and spend money on and all these sorts of things and it’s not it really is as simple as a little bit of fresh air, a Youtube meditation. So yeah. I think getting to know yourself is a big part of it. I think things like journaling the value of that can’t be, I don’t know. It can’t be downplayed enough.

I think a lot of times we can be scared of our own thoughts and scared of what will happen if we slow down. At least I think that’s true of me. I think I was literally keeping myself busy at times to avoid the thoughts that I would hear if there was silence in my mind, and it realistically was, you know, kind of a continuous process of shoving things down that once I let it come to the surface it did completely overwhelm me. But once I was able to sort of heal it and work through it. I’ve now become a better person for it. I’ve become a more productive worker for it and those kinds of things.

So get to know yourself and don’t be afraid of the dark spots, because I think once you’re able to sort of make peace with them and understand them then things will be overall better. Shout out therapy again!

C: I was just gonna say, this feels like a therapy session, in the best way possible!

P: Yeah, I don’t know. I’m not perfect like I’m still so far from you know, anything. I definitely don’t want to give any sort of perception that I’ve got it all figured out, but these sorts of little things are what enabled me to at least come back. Cause now I feel like I don’t. I wouldn’t call myself burnt out anymore. Now I’m working like a normal person at a normal capacity, whereas there was definitely a stretch of time where I was not capable so at least these are the sorts of things that have gotten me sort of back, on my feet and yeah, given me a better kind of sense of the world and outlook and general sort of optimism, even amongst you know a kind of weird climate in the industry.

V:Yeah. Well, I’m glad you’re back on your feet. But yeah, this is a very random question. I can’t believe I haven’t asked this yet, because I don’t ask in podcasts usually. But I like in real life if you know me, one of my favorite questions to ask people is what is your sign?

P: Oh! I’m a Scorpio!

V: Okay, that’s cool love that!

P: Scorpio, Scorpio, Aquarius

V: Nice nice! Okay, that makes sense!

P: Really? How so?

V: I feel like scorpios like to be aware of themselves. And if they see something lacking, they want to fix it, which I mean I could go in deep. I love talking about this type of stuff, but I would say, that makes sense. I was also gonna guess something like Virgo for you or like Taurus.

P: Really interesting. Interesting. No, I definitely don’t know loads about everything, but everything I’ve ever heard about Scorpio. I’m like, Yeah, I resonate. Yeah. That checks out. That sounds like me!

V: Wait, Casey, aren’t you a Virgo?

C: I am, yeah. I think it’s Virgo, Virgo, Pisces? I wanna guess, but I don’t know.

P: Yeah, what are you?

V: I’m a Pisces! Yeah, I don’t know, sorry, tangent. I like talking about that stuff. Cause it allows me to learn a little bit more about someone like “oh, that’s cool!”

P: That’s cool. I love that insight!

V: But yeah glad you’re kind of like, you know, enjoying the little things in life. Not, you know, necessarily doing self-care because that one cool girl on Instagram bought some cute little bath bomb to do self-care.

P: No, no, at least for me like I’ve come to find now that I desperately need it but again it definitely came out of a period of not really honoring myself, not listening to my body driving through really obvious kind of warning bells, just keep going anyways that yeah, drove me to a place where I realized I need serious change in my life or this cycle is just going to continue. And just realizing I don’t want to do this. I don’t want to have these intense periods of work followed by intense periods of burnout. I would rather have play the long game with things and you know, have kind of a continuous sort of ebb and flow that’s, you know, within a sort of narrower range rather than this kind of thing. So. Yeah, it was definitely bred out of necessity. But now it’s shown me how many opportunities there are everyday. It doesn’t have to be hashtag sponsored by Instagram. It can really just be as simple as like. You know what? Breaking my eyes from the screen for 5 min will enable me to finish the day. So I’m gonna go outside for 5 minutes, and then I can do this

C: And that’s like what self care looks like right like it’s it’s not all trendy like, bath bombs, you know, bubble baths, unless that is what works for you. But I think like like taking a walk, and like maybe like giving myself 5 min to like stare at the wall for a second, like you know that is also a form of self care.

P: Absolutely. Absolutely. Both have merit. Both have their place, both kinds of self care.

V: That is true, to each their own.

P: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

C: I think, like a big part of what we do at Fangirls World Tour is giving women and gender expansive people like a place like a platform to speak. We focus a lot on women in the industry, but even like us, I guess, like as a team we are all women run. So I know we talked about this in the interview that I did with you but as a woman in the industry like how do you feel like that pushes hustle culture?

P: I think as a woman, it’s really easy to fall victim to hustle culture in the sense that you have to or feel oftentimes a need to like to prove yourself. Like it’s crazy, this is still true, but I like I can produce no problem. I know my way around Logic like it’s no one’s business, but as soon as I start to like interact with logic in a session, there’s usually from like mail producers this sense of like “oh my God, you’re a girl I thought you could only sing” kind of thing and it’s like…no, no! So I end up feeling like I have to prove myself. I have to get in here and produce the song like nobody’s business, just to sort of show just to sort of make a point no, that’s like not what I mean so much is like, I don’t think men feel that way. Do you know what I mean?

If a man walks into a studio people assume that he knows what he’s doing. Whereas if a if I do, people normally assume you’re the singer,  so sit in the vocal booth, and we’ll let you know when we’re ready for you and it’s like yeah, I think that can definitely play into sort of the hustle culture, and the ultimate burnout of things is yeah, just feeling like you have so much more to prove. And it’s just such a shame that it’s come to this point.

And yeah, I think things are definitely shifting in the right direction. We’re seeing more and more women and traditionally male-dominated roles.

But I don’t know. I think there’s still so much work to be done that yeah, I admittedly kind of fall victim to feeling like I have to work harder than the men in the room just to get to the place where they are, or just to earn their respect you know, and I don’t know. I don’t know the solution to this one cause. Yeah, I just end up feeling like yeah, a really strong desire to sort of show people what women are capable of and what we can do. And yeah, trying to always lift other women up and invite people in.

I heard someone say kind of early in things for me, like “if you ever get a plus one, if you ever get an opportunity, use it, bring someone with you like bring another woman with you and share that experience with her”. And that’s something that especially living in Los Angeles I’ve really tried to live by, like if I get any sort of opportunity, and I get a plus one. I will bring a girlfriend with me, and you know, start to kind of bring up the numbers of women in this room, and you know start to lift each other up in these kinds of things. So I think the more that we, as women, can help lift each other up and give each other a platform as well the quicker we’ll sort of see this progress. But of course, so much of this comes down to like, guys, we are just as capable. We have, just as we have more to offer. We are even more capable, like yeah, I don’t know.

We have so much work to be done in shifting the narrative and adopting these roles, not being afraid of the judgment of what people will think, not feeling like you need to change your physical appearance to better suit things of one of my good friends here is kind of gender fluid, and they were telling me recently that they really see sort of they get different feedback and different respect whether they are dressed more masculine or more feminine and it’s so interesting like they’re exactly the same person delivering exactly the same services.

But just the way that they present will drastically affect the kind of respect that they see back from the room. And I think that’s just I don’t know to me it just made me feel like I’m gonna start wearing the highest heels that I can and everything else just to kind of make a point, just to kind of show that the way you present yourself has nothing to be said about the quality of work that you produce. So, yeah, I don’t know. I think it’s a slippery slope, and part of what contributed to my burnout was feeling like I needed to prove myself in ways that I didn’t feel like my male colleagues need to. So yeah, I don’t know.

That was a huge one, sorry. What was your original question?

C: You’ve got it. You’re good! I loved it. I agree. I think it’s very hard to like be comfortable with yourself enough to like, step up and be like “I’m going to take up space in this room” especially as a woman like I think going into like you said the recording studio like you walk in like “Oh, you’re the assistant”, or “oh, maybe you’re the artist like you’re definitely not the producer” or “you’re definitely not the manager”. And we need to change the narrative of those, being more male-dominated roles.

P: Definitely definitely and we are. We’re seeing it more and more every day. But yeah, it’s important to kind of step up and take that sort of initiative to say “Hello, no, I am actually the engineer here”

V: Yeah, that’s so badass when I see like, you know, women producers. When I go on spotify, like again one of my favorite nerdy things to do is look at the credits, and when I see, like a woman’s name on it, I’m like, “Oh, my God! Yay, finally!” or sometimes I like to see really old songs and I look at their credits, and I realize there’s a woman on it, and I’m like “wait why doesn’t anyone know about this? Hello?”

P: Yeah, yeah, no. There’s lots of women doing amazing things. So it’s time to give credit where credit is due. I wanted to say as well like I feel like the tone of my rant there, like I think women are doing amazing things, and I do think a lot of the responsibility comes back to men. I just feel personally for me. I think it used to make me really shy to feel like people perceive me a certain way, or it would, for example, dictate the kind of clothing that I would wear, and things like that whereas it doesn’t now. Now it feels to me like just kind of a personal goal, to kind of show that these things are not separate, you know, like you can be completely feminine and yeah have an amazing technical skill set as well. And trying to kind of fill my own crews in my own bands with female techs, female instrumentalists. All these kinds of things to sort of yeah. Keep boosting, lifting each other up everywhere we can

C:  I love that. Me personally, that’s all I wanna do, you know. I think that’s something that feels validating to me to do for people, but also like that’s just what we should be doing.

P:Yeah. But again I think it comes down to the boys a lot of times. Like guys need to start kind of taking responsibility for their language. In a big way. I think that’s a really big one. Is yeah, that that kind of narrative of like “Oh, who produces?” Like “I did!” Do you know what I mean. Like would you have asked that of a male artist? Maybe not like Start being cognizant of those kinds of things. Start being aware of how your language and your assumptions shape the conversation and shape your expectations, and start to realize how this is just conditioning, how that lens is just cultural conditioning. It’s all false. It’s time to kind of redo that narrative

C: Language is definitely a big thing.

V: Yeah. No, another thing that I really resonated with what you said earlier is about how in the past you felt like you had to I guess upkeep like, you thought about your appearance, or like you know what I guess, you know the whole gender thingy. About how you look, and how other people perceive you, and like it’s a sad thing, but unfortunately pretty, privilege is such like it’s such a thing, especially in this industry.

I remember, one of the places I was interning at I was showing my boss the name of an artist, and I was like “oh, maybe we should work with them, or like to invite them”. And she’s a woman. No shame to her, but I guess this is the type of world we live in, one of the first things she asked was “Oh, is she hot? Is she pretty?” And “I’m like well, she’s a great artist. I brought her to you because I loved her voice and I loved her music.” But one of the first things she asked was like, “Oh, but is she pretty? Is she hot?” And I’m like “yeahhhh she is!”

P: Oh wow! This is a woman, the boss who asked this wow! Interesting. 

V: I know, I was like “okay, I’m just gonna ignore that”.

P: Oh, my God! What a crazy world we’re living in.

C: I kind of hate that that’s like it, like the exact opposite of what we’re trying to do here.

P: Yeah no we need to lift each other up regardless! Because she’s a great artist. That’s why! Not because of anything visual. Wow! Interesting

V: Yeah, I am not gonna forget that. Anyways.

P: Wow! Yeah. That’s interesting.

C: I had in school, I had somebody like an authority figure tell me but the way that I spoke would make my experiences in the industry worse. And I think I personally felt that it was because I was, you know, like a young woman. Because I use fillers, like “um” and “like”.

But like it just made me very self-conscious for a long time but he didn’t have the authority to say that, like you shouldn’t have – it really doesn’t matter. And I think it was more because I’m young, and because I’m a woman, and because you’re not and like you don’t want to think of me as a threat. Do you know what I mean?

I don’t think we should be talking to anybody like that. It kind of goes off of the pretty privileged thing. The way you carry yourself obviously should be professional. But the words I use shouldn’t dictate my intelligence.

P: No, no, definitely, I actually, I heard on Youtube like slam poetry a gorgeous poem about exactly this. It was called “Like, whatever” I’ll send it to you after this. I’m excited to show you it now, because it was about exactly this. About how you can have such meaningful complex thoughts about really important topics and using the word “um” and “like” around it does not have any bearing on your intellect, on your opinions about it like you’re still presenting worthy viewpoints. So yeah, I’ll send it to you after this.

V: I love that we’re talking about this because I, too, use a lot of fillers. I think about it every now and then, too. I’m like I use way too many fillers. How do I tone down? But I just can’t. I just cannot, unless I have to give a big speech and then I’ll like practice consciously not to use fillers. Or else I like there’s no way, it’s normal. And yeah, I agree it shouldn’t be like beating people up or judging them, or finding the need to comment on really mundane things like that.

C: Right like it. It shouldn’t have been a topic of conversation. It should have been not even brought up.

P:  Oftentimes these things are quite cultural as well. You know, this is how we speak, and we can communicate with each other, and there’s no since there’s no superiority to not doing that.

V: Yeah, honestly if people can’t use fillers like I am impressed. It’s impressive to a certain degree. But I’m also like, “Are you a robot?” 

P: Do you already know what you’re going to say all the time?

C: Imagine knowing what you’re gonna say when it comes out of your mouth.

P: Oh, yeah, I definitely don’t, as you can tell by my very long rant. Once I start the floodgates are opened!  Now I’m feeling very cognizant of “like” and “um”.

C: I’m sorry!

P: It’s funny. Well, I wasn’t thinking about it at all, and then you said it and now, and yeah.

C: That’s not how we should have to think!

V: Okay. I don’t think I have any other burning questions for this episode. Did you have any Casey?

C: No. I think we got everything yeah, on my end at least.

V: Okay, cool. Was there anything you wanted to speak about Penny?

P: Oh, I feel like I’ve spoken a lot. Thank you for being so patient with my long winded answers.

V: No worries!

C: No, I love it! It’s great.

P: Yeah, these things are definitely on my mind a lot. And like I said, I’ve played into this kind of journey of self discovery that I’ve been on for the past year. So it’s really a joy to speak about it, and yeah, I mean I have no idea what’s going on I’m still figuring it out day by day, but I think at least for me talking things through is always a really big helper you know being able to put words to experiences and share them with other like minded people helps me to make sense of it, and to sort of validate my experience of my reality.

So thank you guys so much for creating space for these conversations. I think it’s really important. And yeah, I hope just kind of as a whole our industry is on the way to treating people like humans more. Because I feel like there’s a lot of elements that have been very dehumanizing to women, to touring artists, to all these sorts of things where we need a lot of change.

We need to treat people with a lot more compassion and yeah, think the tide is shifting. We’re starting to see people for who they are

C: Agreed. Yeah, of course, and thank you so much for coming and speaking with us. This was wonderful. I feel relaxed now, like we were talking earlier before you came on about how I was researching, you know, like what to speak about, like what I wanted to bring up, and it made me so frustrated. But now I feel like you know, you guys get it and like I’m sure people that are listening get it. So I just feel like this is a good opportunity to let it out.

P: Hmm, yeah, I mean, it’s difficult. None of these things have easy solutions. It’s all so complex and so kind of deeply ingrained in our culture in our industry. But the more that we have these conversations, and shine light on the kind of sticky places, the more that we can see progress and see change and take better care of ourselves.

V: Yup, and with that, did you wanna plug anything of your own, Penny? Take a moment to be shameless!

C: Go go for it.

P: Shameless? I mean I can do that. My most recent release is called ‘Missed Connection’, and it’s out everywhere. It is the light of my life. It would be so wonderful if you listen to it. Give me a follow I’m on social media at @pennyeau everywhere. And yeah, I’m releasing like I said a lot of new music in the New Year. My next thing will be released Friday, the 13th of January. So yeah, I’m really looking forward to a big year ahead.

C: I love it. Thank thank you so much for joining us

P:Thank you so much for having me. This is so wonderful. every conversation we’ve had

I really enjoyed it. So thank you for having me back!

V: Thank you for coming on here. It was like a therapy session.So I hope. Whoever’s listening will also, you know, feel a little relaxed! Like you know we’re all in this together. Things can be intimidating, but also you gotta find your people. Yeah. And with that, we’ll sign off!